C.o.R.E. Spotlight - AMA with Stake DAO

tratium — 2 years ago

"I see Tokemak as quite revolutionary, so I'm a bit biased." - Hatashi

With C.o.R.E.3 beginning next week, the Tokemak team has lined up a series of AMAs ("Ask Me Anything") with various Reactor candidates.

The Spotlight Series will allow the Tokemak community to familiarize itself with the protocols that are interested in securing a Reactor of their own, and get a peek into why these DAOs are so interested in moving away from liquidity mining in favor of sustainable liquidity.

First up is Stake DAO, a protocol designed to offer curated staking strategies that simplify away the complexities of uncovering yield-bearing DeFi investments.

Stake DAO is a non-custodial platform that enables anyone to easily grow their crypto portfolio. It is built on top of decentralized blockchain protocols, offering a seamless way for people to grow, track, and control assets right from their wallet. As a project, we aim to allow anyone — with any level of knowledge of crypto — to have easy access to the market’s most competitive products and strategies.

For more information about Stake DAO:

C.o.R.E. Spotlight Schedule

Alternatively, the recording is available on SoundCloud.

Key Takeaways

"Stake DAO is a place where people who are a little bit technical can get access to the best yield in DeFi."

Hatashi is the Head of Product & Growth at Stake DAO and has been in the crypto industry for around 5 years.
Stake DAO is the brainchild of Julien Bouteloup. It launched ~1.5 years ago with the aim to allow anyone to gain access to staking strategies.
In the beginning, Stake DAO focused on catering towards non-crypto-natives. Later the team realized that this market was rather small, so more degen-focused products have been launched.
Stake DAO Academy is a great educational resource.
Stake DAO aims to offer best-in-class UX in order to abstract away the complexities.
Stake DAO is one of the few projects that has secured a Curve Whitelist and can offer boosted yield to users.
"Liquidity is the central narrative everywhere, including traditional markets."
Stake DAO plans to use accrued TOKE to support strategic partners in Liquid Lockers. The TOKE farmed is designed to benefit anyone with $SDT.
Alpha: Liquid Lockers will soon be permissionless after an audit is complete. Anyone may request to deploy an sd-version of a Locker, and the Lockers themselves will be able to vote to direct emissions, liquidity, and boosted rewards to any strategies.
SDT will act as a meta-governance token. Holders of $SDT will get a proportional allocation of TOKE to direct liquidity for their own token.
Stake DAO has also partnered with Olympus Pro to grow their Protocol Owned Liquidity to ~$10M.
When Stake DAO works with a protocol, they lock their token rather than dump (similar to Tokemak's Lock Everything, Dump Nothing strategy).
FTX are dumpooors, a net-negative for the space.
Stake DAO encourages the utilization of tokens rather than "net-negative" actions.
The future of DeFi revolves around increased DAO-to-DAO interactions, integrations, and collaboration.
The market has been very frothy, with lots of "vulture capital." The current lull and reduction of valuations is better for innovation and building.
Wenbrane? CJ is in the dark due to being a serial leakooor.
Stake DAO has been discussing a "Pool Together" to direct liquidity. This could be an interesting crowdsourced liquidity or incubation model.
Stake DAO may offer bribes during C.o.R.E.3, depending on cost.

"Liquidity Wizard's paper, which defines the different Stages [of DAOs], is really something that is quite phenomenal. We're doing everything we can to move to being a Stage 6 protocol."

💡

Rough Transcript of AMA

[00:00:00.310] - Dan
No, I think we're good to get started.

[00:00:05.750] - SHARP
I think that it would be great to just explain to the community the purpose of these spotlights. So, as everyone knows, we're all eager to start CoRE3, and this is a great community. This is a great way to also expose to the community the protocols that will run, get an overview of each one of the protocols, and essentially get an outlook of how we can cooperate and create synergies with our future reactors.

[00:00:38.130] - CJ
Yes. Well said. All right. Thanks, SHARP.

[00:00:40.480] - Hatashi
Cool.

[00:00:40.910] - CJ
Well, Hatashi, I'll kick things over. Really appreciate you joining us today. Can you give a quick intro on Stake DAO to our fellow pilots here in the audience?

[00:00:53.310] - Hatashi
Yeah, for sure. I'd be more than happy to. I think...first of all, thank you for having me. I think I speak for all of us at Stake DAO when I say we're big fans of what's going on with the Tokemak ecosystem and looking forward to CoRE3, for those of you unaware.

So Stake DAO is a platform that provides staking solutions – smart contract strategies, as well as NFTs and some structured products. If I had to do it in a one liner, I'd basically say it's a place where people that are a little bit technical and also not technical at all can get access to some of the best yield in DeFi.

So we've been live for just over, I think, a year and four or five months. We launched just before, I guess like all of the craziness with the NFT summer wave and probably just after the first wave of DeFi summer at the moment. I think we have just over 600 million in TVL, and that's split across staking. So proof of stake validated services, as well as the sort of small contract strategies which I mentioned earlier, typically built on top of Curve over I think five or six different networks.

[00:02:09.330] - Hatashi
So of course we're biggest on ETH Mainnet, but we've also expanded to Polygon, Cello, Harmony, BSC, all of the majors, Solana as well. And yeah, that's kind of like a quick rundown about Stake DAO myself since before we launched the project.

Some of you might be aware of Julien Bouteloup; this is kind of his brainchild. So since 2017 he had this vision of a staking platform which enabled anyone without any technical knowledge to get access to some of the yields which DeFi offers. And consequently we built up Stake DAO, as well as adding some extra stuff like our arbitrage strategies, flash loans, etc., and we managed to get a Curve whitelist. So we do offer the boosted yield from that to all of our users as well. So then, yeah, we launched and I mainly lead product and growth at Stake DAO in there for full time as a DAO contributor for just under two years, and I guess in the space for just under five. Yeah, that's a quick ELI5.

[00:03:25.050] - CJ
That's awesome. Thank you for the explanation. One follow up in there: I'm curious how you guys are helping those non-technical users, or maybe even non-crypto users potentially gain access to those staking yields. Is that something that you've thought about and are working on integrating into your roadmap? Just making it more accessible to the masses?

[00:03:48.210] - Hatashi
Yeah, definitely. So actually that was one of the main aims when we launched it. We really wanted anyone like your typical mom & pop to be able to get access to some of the yield that we all enjoy whilst making sure that they're safeguarded against de-pegging tokens or unlimited approvals, et cetera.

So we approached this in two ways. One was by product design, so making sure that everything was explained in the UI in nontechnical terms. So rather than saying like, I don't know, SDAM, 3 Curve, like unwrap it, go to Curve and deposit, taking the gauge, all of that kind of stuff, we tried to build a really easy UX, so through the UI you don't really need to know anything about what's going on in the underlying. You just see like a button which says deposit, stake, et cetera. But we actually saw that in DeFi in particular, there weren't that many, let's say like crypto non-native, or retail users at the time of launch. So we had to shift our strategy a little bit to be suited around DeFi degens. So probably some of the people on this call who are relatively familiar with DeFi and just want access to yield without having to explore a little bit too much.

[00:05:01.340] - Hatashi
And in order to still target and onboard new users into DeFi, we integrated a few different features such as like magic login. We also started the Stake DAO Academy, which is a totally free resource that lets people understand and undertake learning pathways. So from stuff which is really, really basic, like what is proof of stake, what is Ethereum, going up into more complex topics such as what is Curve, how does AMM work, what is the strategy, et cetera? And those learning pathways actually lead to something which we like to call like learn to earn. So the more and more you undertake the tasks on the Academy and fill out the quizzes and whatever you can get access to actually some rewards, like real monetary value. And we've seen roughly about 60 people using the site, which is great to see. And as I mentioned, it's totally free. And then on the other side we've continued to build out the UX so that rather than having to almost understand what's going on in the underlying a bit like Facebook and https...no one really knows how https works when you click like a like button, right?

[00:06:11.530] - Hatashi
So we've tried to create an interface which provides a similar experience.

[00:06:18.010] - CJ
I think that's great. The educational piece is super smart, because no one's going to use it if they don't understand even the basics.

[00:06:23.890] - Hatashi
So it's all about onboarding new people into DeFi as well.

[00:06:29.770] - CJ
Growing the pie instead of fighting over what already exists today. I think we all see the potential and where it's going. Well, cool, super helpful introduction! I was curious if you could speak on why you're interested in a Tokemak Reactor and sort of any general thoughts or struggles or just your experience with liquidity and why you see that being important for Stake DAO?

[00:06:55.850] - Hatashi
Yeah, definitely. I think liquidity is...I know it has been and probably will continue to be the central, let's say, narrative anywhere. Like if you look at traditional markets, liquidity is what enables a lot of what's already got on top to be like a fluid efficient market. And we see the same thing in DeFi. I think in terms of our own experience, what we've kind of seen...the full spectrum.

So in the beginning when we launched, liquidity mining was very popular...so pushing rewards into SushiSwap, Uniswap. And then of course there was the Sushi token. So relying on another protocol's emissions to be able to build out your own liquidity. Because naturally that's actually a big part of ensuring that and ownership of the protocols.

Governance tokens remain I guess permissionless to some extent, since if you don't have that much liquidity then users have a lot of problems exiting, claiming the yield or even entering the space. So yeah, we see it as hugely important. I think with the strategies it's always easy for users to exit. But as I mentioned, with regards to governance claiming yield, those liquidity, I guess, events are important to be able to let anyone have access to.

[00:08:13.910] - Hatashi
We shifted from the liquidity mining model to going into something which is a little bit more centered around protocol and liquidity, working very closely with Olympus. Pretty sure we were one of the first partners there, and we managed to scale total liquidity for the protocol around 10-15 million, which was very good for us. And I think since protocol-owned liquidity has matured and the whole Olympus ecosystem has seen its life cycle, I guess, enter any phase, we have been very closely watching Tokemak and the ability to have liquidity on demand.

I think this is something which is really important for us, particularly given our focus on permissionless and sort of decentralized methods of being able to provide people access to the token. So rather than going on to a centralized exchange, maintaining our distribution across Uniswap, Curve, SushiSwap, and a CoRE3 Reactor would of course enable us to actually direct liquidity against our token whilst continuing to maintain the protocol-owned liquidity. I think one of the really important things about SDT is it goes beyond the governance token now. So we recently launched the Liquid Lockers, which are essentially perpetually staking governance tokens for any protocol that implements ve-tokenomics.

[00:09:40.670] - Hatashi
And within that what we've done is abstracted away some governance power into the SDT token which lets any holder of SDT be able to participate in the governance of whatever underlying locker there may be. So you can think of it like CVX and Curve, but for everything. So therefore, you can imagine that the provision of liquidity for SDT is extremely, extremely important and actually provides a nice yield for anyone.

Some of the other things which we're looking into is enabling people that are providing liquidity to continue to participate in governance. And for all of those reasons above, it just makes sense to pursue a solution, like Tokemak, where we can utilize our governance power across the ecosystem and some of the TOKE which we've accrued to be able to maintain liquidity for all of our tokens, not just SDT, but looking beyond and seeing if we can get Toke-staked sdCRV. If you're participating in the locker, you also get that additional level of yield.

I think Liquidity Wizard's paper, which defines the different stages, is really something which is quite phenomenal. And yeah, we're doing everything we can to move towards sort of like a stage six, stage seven protocol.

[00:11:05.510] - CJ
That's great. You're touching on some things that we're going to play very nicely with. SHARP, I'm wondering if you could hop in here and respond, since I know this is your area of expertise. Yes.

[00:11:18.460] - SHARP
So essentially, like, on this regard, something that I would like to emphasize is that I've been a Stake DAO user on the FRAX vault that you guys have. So when I saw that you guys were also entering the Liquid Lockers, it's a very interesting product and very eager to see how it plays out specifically with Angle. And I was also curious to know if you guys are considering to, for example, use the token that you accrue to also support strategic partners that you might have in your own Liquid Lockers, for example, like Angle and others that are present. And that will be present because I assume that you will expand the Liquid Lockers eventually to protocols like APWine and others that adopt veTokenomics.

[00:12:07.130] - Hatashi
Yeah, exactly. Well, first of all, great to hear that you're a user and if you have any feedback, would love to kind of discuss it. We're always very open to iterating and refactoring anything that we've deployed. And yeah, you're spot on. So that's exactly what we'll be doing. We're very much seeing tokens rather than yield as it's kind of seen in DeFi the FDX is or whatever, just farming and dumping. We really want to partner with protocols and help them to achieve their purpose. So it's okay that we found...yes. The whole point is to be able to direct it to anyone, not only partners, but literally anyone who has SDT or any of the other things within our ecosystem, to be able to direct liquidity wherever the market feels it's more efficient.

And I guess like a little bit of Alpha: although we started with Angle, FX and Curve for our Liquid Lockers, we will soon be making it permissionless. So we're going under order at the moment, but anyone can request to deploy an SD version of whatever lock may exist permissionlessly, and then the lockers of SDT will be able to vote to direct emissions, liquidity and also boosted rewards – let's say to any of the strategies based off of the underlying in particular answer to your question, that means let's say Angle or FXS.

[00:13:35.770] - Hatashi
If they hold a certain amount of SDT, they will get a proportional allocation depending on how deeply we go into the Tokemak ecosystem where they can utilize our token to direct liquidity for their token.

[00:13:51.230] - SHARP
That's awesome. So essentially you can use SDT as this metagovernance token that will direct inflation to whoever controls the most SDT within your Liquid Lockers, right?

[00:14:02.750] - Hatashi
Yeah. So rather than being 100% on whoever has the most, it will be proportional based on the voting. So a lot like Curve, but yeah, that's exactly it.

[00:14:15.870] - SHARP
Yeah. And it would be awesome to see new projects also being listed. Permissions. That's also something that we are striving to achieve at permissionless listing of reactors.

[00:14:33.070] - Hatashi
I've been following TOKE very closely for a few months. Eagerly anticipating the permissionless deployment.

[00:14:41.290] - SHARP
There are new exciting to economics and everything will fit together to enable precisely that. And touching on a very interesting comment that you have regarding Sam and his comments about just farming and dumping on each other. I think that we are seeing an evolution within DeFi, which is the rise of doubt about interactions. Well, this rise of doubt about interactions entails that even that we can have long term goals between different protocols. We stop dumping on each other and we actually build striving to achieve our goals together. And this is something that someone like FTX or Alameda that just farms and dumps for profit wouldn't be able to highlight within their strategies. But for us protocols that are cooperating to increase our composite and build a better deficit system, that's definitely something that I'd like to emphasize for the community to take into consideration. And we are seeing that with the entire ve-tokenomics. They thrive when new protocols converge to this new Schelling point. Right. So you are starting to see more and more protocols to understand the importance of actually building towards a common goal. And that's something that will benefit all of us.

[00:16:00.850] - Hatashi
Yeah, 100%. I mean all of our partner protocols can attest, but you guys are also more than welcome to check on-chain. Whenever we work with someone, we utilize their token for what it is rather than like yield. So we've never dumped any tokens actually.

So this is a little bit of alpha, but the strategy is that we had previously – let's say the ve one – they had auto compounding built on top of Curve, so it would be selling Curve rewards. But now we've integrated many different protocols. So rather than auto-dumping all of them, what we've done is sort of pass on the choice to the user. So what you can actually do is have all of the different tokens listed, and you can claim them. You can choose to auto-dump them, you can choose to auto-stake them into a locker, or just even decide like any number of options for all of the different ones that you might accrue.

So, yeah, going back to your comment earlier about metagovernance, it's also kind of like meta yield in a way. Yeah. I mean, the end goal is really to encourage the utilization of tokens rather than, I guess, doing negative actions.

[00:17:19.430] - Hatashi
But yeah, actually all of that architecture is under audit at the moment with chain security, and that should be reduced.

[00:17:36.750] - SHARP
Plenty of alpha being distributed here today by Stake DAO, though I think that it's great to see new options being provided also on all of these protocols that provide strategies for their users in terms of votes. And I'm sure that optionality will also be welcomed by everyone that uses your products...myself included, because as I told you, I use the FRAX fault. I'm a huge FRAX fan, so I'm eager to see the developments that you guys have in store for now.

[00:18:09.630] - Hatashi
Yeah, definitely.

[00:18:12.090] - CJ
Cool.

[00:18:12.880] - CJ
I got one more for you, and then I'd like to open it up to the audience. So if any of our listeners have any questions that they'd like to ask, hop into the CoRE3 channel on the left, drop them in there, and then we'll get you taken care of next. So ask away in text and then we'll ask Hatashi.

Lastly, I'm wondering if you could just opine on the general state of DeFi – where you see it going through this year and next year. What does the next year and a half in your mind for DeFi look like generally?

[00:18:49.110]
Sure.

[00:18:49.560] - Hatashi
Yeah, it's a very interesting question. So I think it's no secret that we are in a little bit of a lull, let's say, like some people (degens in particular) have been saying. And I'm convinced that we're in month 16 of a 4 year bear market.

I think some others have a little bit more of an optimistic view. But it wouldn't be unfair to say that, yes, we went through like a very frothy market where pretty much every week a new DAO was launching and it was the constant chase, like, okay, are they going to do an airdrop? Should we utilize the platform before they do an airdrop? And then it was kind of like vulture capital. You farm, you dump, you get the air drop, you dump that, move on to the next one. And those kind of situations aren't actually that good for innovation, naturally. It's like a hype cycle. You kind of seeing pretty much the same thing in the NFT world these days. And DeFi has actually benefited from it, I think. Yes, we've had token valuations come down. Luckily this has been really good I think actually because it's taken away a lot of the froth, let's say.

[00:20:03.430] - Hatashi
And yeah, it's been quite good for innovation. We've seen lots of new projects come up Tokemak included who have innovated and iterated on the very basic concepts. Like if we think back just even a year ago we just had the Sushi X Sushi contract and it was like revolutionary. And if you look forward now we have all of these amazing ways to direct liquidity accrue yield, distribute yield. And yeah, overall I think on the dev side it's been a bull market despite being a bearish or crab market in the dollar sense.

I think one of the best things that we are seeing is a lot more B2B or D2D collaboration, which is seeing the release of new products and really like 3, 3 behaviors between different DAOs. I think we can expect this to continue. Really. You see it in like most economic cycles, companies start to work together in more, let's say, economically challenging environments...and this is leading to greater innovation and better products for users. And I think it also helps to create better integration across the space. So even if you're a user of one protocol, you benefit because the other protocol now has...let's say your balance is automatically updated or you're working.

[00:21:26.850] - Hatashi
Let's say it's like a lending protocol. You have your strategy and then you can automatically borrow against it on the other platform. So I think like state of DeFi in the next 3 to 6 months is really bullish. We still have a somewhat crazy, let's say crazy market on the raising side. Like I'm seeing lots of different products at like 200, 300 million dollar valuation for just an idea, and they're able to secure a lot of funding. So I mean, the value of those projects is kind of like debatable and individual. But it's good to see that there's more traditional money, let's say coming into the space because with that, although might come regulation, also does come a lot of smart people from web2, an increased presence of devs, and a different mindset focused on collaboration rather than farm and dump. So yeah, just touch wood – if there's no wider existential shocks then I think we should be looking for a very nice 3-6 months for everyone.

[00:22:39.870] - CJ
Great. I was trying to find my mic button. Good answer. I'm also optimistic, so eager to exit this crab market...and I don't see any questions yet, so I'll ask another one. Why the choice of an elephant as the Stake DAO mascot?

[00:22:58.390] - Hatashi
This question has come up a lot, and we still don't really have any other answer other than we just like elephants at this time. Honestly, there wasn't that much thought that went into it. It was just like, okay, elephants are cool, let's pick that one. But I think it's been a good choice. They're wise, they're prudent, they're strong, but not aggressive. Let's say it has a lot of marketing congeniality, but yeah, other than that, no real reason.

I have a question for you as well, actually... wen BRANE?

[00:23:46.870] - CJ
If I only knew! I ask the Membrane team daily. I think they've muted me because I'm testing them so much. So I too would like the answer to that question. I don't have it yet. They don't trust me. They know I leak.

[00:24:00.210] - Hatashi
Okay. Left to keep an eye on this.

[00:24:03.930] - CJ
I'll DM you once I know more, I promise.

[00:24:06.470] - Hatashi
Oh yeah, perfect. One of the other cool things, I don't know if maybe you guys have an opinion on it or not, but one of the cool things that we were exploring was like a strategy to direct yield built on top of Tokemak.

So this would essentially, I think, come into play later on when you guys have permissionless pools and permissionless liquidity direction, but something like almost like a Pool Together to direct liquidity so users can all deposit and they can all decide to accrue funds. And then there's either a whitelist or there's just like a big list from all of the protocols that can receive liquidity from Tokemak, and users just vote. But it's built on top of Tokemak.

So it could be a subset like just DeFi protocols or just like NFT lending platforms or something like Rari or whatever. And for the user, it makes sense because they can adjust risk and define, I guess, categories of different types of blockchain protocols that might exist in that portfolio and benefit from the yield from this. I know there's a lot of like, DAOs and also institutional funds looking to get exposure to just a specific class.

[00:25:26.110] - Hatashi
So, yeah, we were just thinking about that. Is that even possible with the new kind of architecture that you guys are working on?

[00:25:34.630] - SHARP
Well, I would just ask something, which is would you see, for example, a feature where it would be possible to essentially crowdsource liquidity within that pool to newly founded project? So let's say Project ABC has launched today. They have a strong community. That community deposits into that pool, and they crowdsource the liquidity that is required to set up a pool that's associated with Project ABC.

[00:26:01.390] - Hatashi
Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:04.390] - SHARP
Okay, that's awesome. That would take crowdsourcing liquidity to the next level. And it's definitely something that is possible to build on top of Tokemak. There are a few other protocols.

[00:26:16.270] - Hatashi
It would be really cool not only for newer projects, but also, let's say projects which have died away or they have a strong community, but they've been unable to scale liquidity for whatever reason. It could be like a nice way to even rescue DAOs and incubate new DAOs and even support anything else, because I know Tokemak doesn't have the ve mechanism, but the voting works slightly differently. So I was thinking about something that could be built on top that enables that.

[00:26:50.610] - SHARP
Definitely possible. And again, can't leak too much when 70k3m3ch is muted because I know that he would like to have some comments on the crowdsourcing and liquidity to the new project's part. That's definitely something that's possible, and we are very eager to discuss that.

[00:27:19.600] - Hatashi
Amazing.

[00:27:20.710] - CJ
So Hatashi, Mr. E from the audience has asked if you plan on using bribes to try to secure your Reactor. Previously Votemak was used by a couple of protocols, I believe APWine, Gamma, and Fox. So they incentivize TOKE stakers to vote for them. So do you plan on using now Hidden Hand by Redacted in order to try to win a reactor in CoRE?

[00:27:47.690] - SHARP
Well, before any comment, I should just say that CoRE spotlight...like one of the main goals here is also to emphasize other components of the protocols that are running for CoRE3 besides just the bribes. So bribes are something that is external to Tokemak. It's something that we cannot control. These bribing strategies incur in risks and protocols should be aware of that. And part of this initiative should also highlight idiosyncrasies that each single one of the protocols that is running us.

[00:28:21.750] - Hatashi
Yeah, for sure. I'll be very honest. I only have, let's say, a basic understanding of how Votemak and Hidden Hand, I think that's how Redacted kind of works, but I did have a look in terms of what the number of votes that it takes to get a Reactor is like monumental, something around like 13, 14 million TOKE.

Yeah, I think that is an option which is on the table, but we would need to work out exactly what makes sense, like dollar per vote. Is it better to open source and just send out some bribes to be able to get it, or does it work slightly better if we speak to some DAOs directly who already have voting power on Tokemak and kind of come to terms for agreement? But I mean, certainly like 14 million TOKE, especially at current valuation. It's kind of no joke, right. And we don't have that many at the moment. So we would have to find an alternate solution, I guess. Yeah. Was it Mr. E? Yeah. In answer, probably to be honest, man, probably we would have to end up using something like that.

[00:29:30.270] - CJ
Yeah. And Echo what SHARP said, we're officially neutral. We're not recommending. Ideally, we want the community to pick the DAOs that have interesting use cases...are a little bit unique from maybe some of the other CoRE winners, to showcase other use cases for how we can provide liquidity to different markets. But ultimately, what adds the most value, what creates most synergies, what's going to create the best long term match? So the purpose of these AMAs is to try to suss that out and make sure we're collaborating with people that have a mutual interest in the long term, not just trying to pump their numbers in the short term...and based on today's call, it seems like an excellent fit. I think this has been a really good conversation.

[00:30:09.830] - Hatashi
Yeah, I think benefits for the Tokemak ecosystem, of course, like there's the metagovernance angle and all of that stuff which does scale beyond it. But I think one of the advantages is of course by having a Reactor for SDT, I'm not sure if TOKE at the DAO accrues the governance token that the reactor exists for. Is that the case or is it kind of just like staked and you guys don't touch those tokens?

[00:30:37.690] - SHARP
You mean the reserve that collateralizes the Reactor? Yeah. That's also deployed to trading markets.

[00:30:46.700] - Hatashi
Yeah. Okay, perfect. Obviously, as people are kind of aping into the token and aping out of it to do all of the voting and benefit for the bribes, then it means like more fees for Tokemak, which is always good for holders. And I think also we could see a world where we have the different Curve vaults for the lockers in Tokemak, so we just kind of work in.

I think they're called T-assets, which of course helps scale Tokemak and grows the ecosystem. I think the whole idea would be to continue scaling and providing more fees for users beyond that, as mentioned, the bribe revenue, although that's like an external thing that could be beneficial for anyone that does own Tokemak. From a user perspective, separate from the protocol perspective, you'd be able to get additional revenues. And I mean, I see Tokemak as quite revolutionary, so I think I'm a bit biased. But this method of liquidity direction is definitely good for us and we'd be more than happy to incorporate any suggestions be that from the community or other DAOs which help create beneficial environments for those communities.

[00:32:06.050] - SHARP
I believe that driving markets are inevitable in the long run to direct liquidity itself for CoRE3. I would like to have like an unbiased choice of projects, but it's also great to see that projects are willing to put up economic incentives to secure a reactor, but hopefully we will see the permissionless reactors soon and that will bring all new life to the connect ecosystem.

[00:32:36.070] - Hatashi
Yeah, for sure. Go ahead. No, I was just wondering...does Tokemak have any plans to...I guess enable additional rewards or like a form of bribing from an in-house solution, or is that something which you guys are pretty set on keeping external?

[00:32:56.250] - SHARP
Well, the answer to that, I would say that for now should be external, but there might be some components that can be integrated in the new tokeonomics that could bring some internal revenue. But regardless, value will always accrue to TOKE holders that ultimately will receive the cash flow that is associated with the influence that's intrinsic to bribing.

[00:33:23.990] - Hatashi
Got you. Okay, cool. That makes sense.

[00:33:26.290] - CJ
Great. Hatashi, I think it's been a great call. If one of our pilots wanted to learn more about Stake DAO, now where can they go to learn more?

[00:33:34.620] - Hatashi
Sure, yeah, I'd go to the Twitter page. It's just Stake DAO HQ, and from there you can find pretty much everything. So links to our YouTube have like video explainers from the community explaining how the different strategies work. There's also some which are focused more on what the DAO is and how the voting works. We also have a couple of in-house videos which we've done to explain how the Liquid Lockers work, and then you have links to like, everything GitBook & GitHub. If you want to review code or words or whatever is kind of to your taste, you should be able to find everything there.

We also have a Discord and Telegram, so that's how you guys can engage with the community. A special shout out to Chago, Jean-brass and DD who are some new guys who joined and yeah, they'll be more than eager to answer any of your questions or even debate some of the more, let's say, hypothetical or strategy type of things going on in the space.

[00:34:32.570] - SHARP
Also advised to check out Stake DAO Academy. I read one of your articles on bribes, I think, and it was quite interesting...and especially for people that are starting out just to learn about DeFi. It's a great resource that I would emphasize.

[00:34:49.610] - Hatashi
Yeah, exactly. And if you go onto, like StakeDAO.org and just scroll to the footer, you should be able to find links to literally everything. But yeah. Also if you have any problems or questions and want to reach out, feel free to DM me here or on Twitter and try and get around to as soon as possible.

[00:35:08.550] - SHARP
Will do.

[00:35:09.090] - Hatashi
Thank you.

[00:35:09.990] - SHARP
This was a great conversation and thank you for joining us. And also everyone that has been present in the audience.

[00:35:17.510] - Hatashi
Absolutely a pleasure to be here, guys. Always love talking Tokemak, so thank you very, very much for having me and hopefully we chat again soon.

[00:35:26.990] - CJ
Glad you're in CoRE.

[00:35:27.990] - Hatashi
All right. Thanks for coming today. Okay, bye. Thanks, bye.