Lobis x Tokemak: DAOs, Membrane, and the Singularity


Mr. E wrote up an introduction to Lobis earlier this week, which describes the relationship of the Lobis "meta-governence" protocol to Tokemak.

Olympus is a blackhole of value, Tokemak is a blackhole of liquidity, Lobis is a blackhole of governance.

In this AMA, the Lobis DAO chats with LiquidityWizard on DeFi 2.0, and how the landscape of decentralized finance is transitioning to protocol-to-protocol infrastructure.

Alpha Leaks


Membrane is a protocol focused on OTC trading and bespoke lending and block trades. The BRANE tokens effectively gives credits to individual users on this system. With the BRANE token allows you to build on prefunded spot, and see the credit worthiness of individuals. (will be used within Tokemak ecosystem too).

Governance Passthrough

As we start earning CRV and CVX, our intent is not to horde that at our DAOs discretion, we plan to pass through underlying CRV/CVX voting power to TOKE token holders. We get CRV stability.

TOKE Buyback

TOKE from buyback can be used to help bootstrap smaller projects.

Hmmm, very interesting leak here! Sounds familiar...

Tokemak Incubator: Reactor Raises & Token Launches
SparkleCrimes speculates on Tokemak’s future as a project incubator, allowing reactors to be used to bootstrap ideas as an alternative to early stage VC rounds.

L2 Integration

Our plan is to be an any-to-any protocol. Cycles optimize for bridging. L2 bridge will deposit assets to a Tokemak manager on the destination chain/network.

C.o.R.E. & Permissionless Reactors

Timeline for permissionless reactors has been pushed back in the timeline, within the next 2-3 months. Completing the utility of liquidity deployment is a priority. A C.o.R.E.3. event will happen in the meantime.

GH0ST08 on Capital Inflows to Membrane

Inflows from Tokemak to Membrane will enable trades that use up much less gas compared to most DeFi protocols.

Maybe Membrane will enable gasless trading of tAssets, where the underlying is stored in reactors?

Role of Stabilizers and rAssets

High risk, high reward pools. You want as much usable liquidity as possible. Another pool will exist called "the reserve" that accepts the underlying in return for an rAsset. This is designed for advanced participants. A Tokemak "slush fund" where there is higher risk but higher return.

Reaching Singularity

What drivers of TVL growth might be the most influential (beyond the incremental on boarding of new reactors), to reach singularity?  - CEO Bert
The need for liquidity will lead to outsized returns/incentives. - Carson


[00:00:00.010] - Mr. E
Whatever works there, it is.

[00:00:02.260] - Ohmly

[00:00:02.790] - Carson
Everyone. Sorry, I'm cutting it close.

[00:00:05.450] - Mr. E
No problem at all. No worries. Only you want to Dao the intro and remind everybody about the text channel.

[00:00:14.270] - Ohmly
Oh, yeah. So thank you, everyone, for joining our AMA today with Tokemak, and the great Liquidity Wizard is here. I think today the Q and A will be hosted by a combination of Mr. E, Plutus and Exalted. And for anyone who wants to submit questions via text, we have the Parliament chat channel open, so feel free to use that. And we'll have people monitoring that as well to pass questions through. So with that, I will shut up and hand over to you guys.

[00:00:43.260] - Mr. E
Nice. Yeah. And also just to preface the call Lobis ambassador to Tokemak. It's kind of a new governance role we're playing with. We're really excited to have Liquidity Wizard here. Probably one of many AMA's with the team. I'm a member over at the Tokemak discord community captain really have dug deep and just in general, kind of want to frame the opportunity. We have generalized liquidity in TokyoBack. We got generalized governance in Lobis and kind of where we see those kind of two tools fitting together. So really happy to have liquidity. Was it here? And I guess, Carson, you can just go into your background, give a little where you came from, how you got into DeFi how token that came to be, and we'll just go from there.

[00:01:39.650] - Carson
Perfect. Yeah. I appreciate all of you inviting me here, excited to be part of the community here. So quick. Background. My pseudonymous name is Liquidity Wizard, but real world name is Carson. My background was Tech, did a PhD in physics, Masters in electrical engineering, got into the trading world while I was doing that, ultimately went over to the business side of things for a while at McKinsey, saw what works. And much more importantly, what sucks in the world of TradFi. While I was there, mostly in the fintech and financial services space, was monitoring crypto really closely jump ship in January 2018 to build Fractal, which was a prop trading group and market making firm. And really out of that, we saw sort of the need to build Tokemak, so it sort of came out of this question. We were active on Zero X and then across all the different AMMS. So we were sort of doing decentralized market making, but we asked the question like, what is an actual decentralized, decentralized market maker look like? And that's how tokemak was born. So ultimately, for those of you, some of you probably aren't overly familiar with Tokemak on this call.

[00:02:52.280] - Carson
Tokemak is a decentralized liquidity provider, so it sources tokens in order to route as liquidity. So you have liquidity providers into the protocol and then those that have TOKE, which is sort of this governance on steroids token that we have they're able to direct liquidity. They're called liquidity directors and they can route the liquidity to wherever it's needed across DeFi. And importantly, the first groups that you would think about that need TOKE and need tokemak are project tokens or governance tokens where they are often living and dying by if they can establish enough liquidity, which is sort of maybe a sad state of affairs and something that we are trying to fix as well as exchanges that live, the more liquidity that arise with them, the better the pricing is, therefore the more trading volume and thereby the most fees that they generate. So exchanges want. It also a really interesting sort of narrative here for stable coins, because the curve wars have really played out largely because stable coins are looking for stability. And I can go into this more later. Tokemak is sort of the next evolution of that where the next after you've stabilized or held the peg first stable coin, you now need utilization across D Phi, and that's where Tokyo can help.

[00:04:08.270] - Carson
So with that, I'll pause and we can jump into kind of anything much more deeply.

[00:04:15.390] - Mr. E
Yeah. Maybe get some context on like TOKE it's a governance token. Tokenized. Liquidity kind of how that replaces some of the pool two dynamics.

[00:04:27.090] - Carson
Yeah, absolutely. I think Lobis is in an interesting position, since you're already bonding FXS and CRV, you can kind of think of TOKE as sort of the next evolution of some of those protocols, and I don't think that doesn't mean that they replace either of those. And I'll try to explain here. So CRV, you can think of the curve wars as a battle for liquidity by controlling the emissions, but everything is locked within the protocol that is curved, and FXS also uses the voters grow system, so similar to the CRV and Ve CRV over in the curb ecosystem, you can now direct emissions and thereby attract liquidity to any pool that has Frax within it. So it's limited to pools that have Frax. Token is generalized liquidity where now it's not restricted to any specific asset or restricted to any specific venue. So now you can direct liquidity to curb and sushi swap and Uniswap and balancer and zerox and others and direct liquidity for any underlying token. The concept of generalized liquidity will be a very powerfuL1, because if you think about builders in the space, they generally are incentivizing staking in two different pools, the Socalled pooL1s and pool twos.

[00:05:43.370] - Carson
So if I'm a founder of a protocol that has ABC token, usually the playbook is I stand up staking in an ABC only pool which removes cell pressure and often doesn't do anything else. Sometimes they enable governance by that, but it's really generally to remove cell pressure, then they'll also incentivize, usually with a higher Apr, an ABC E or ABC USDC as an example or ABC Ohm, sushi swap or Uniswap LP position. Those underlying tokens are doing something valuable, right. They're actually providing liquidity. People are able to buy and sell into that liquidity. And so you can argue that that's actually useful work that those underlying tokens are doing. However, there's sort of this arbitrary choice that people were making on what they pair it with and where they established the liquidity sushi swap unit swap or somewhere else with Tokemak. Anytime you put an ABC token into Tokemak is Liquidity, you get back a tABC token, which is basically your claim on the underlying liquidity within Tokemak, and then the liquidity directors can route that anywhere on any supported venue, sushi swap, Uniswap balancer, and others where the liquidity is needed based on where users and protocols are interacting with it.

[00:06:57.070] - Carson
So long wind way of saying if protocols now start replacing pool twos with the acid staking pools, and a good example of someone sort of on the forefront of this is Alchemix. So Scoopy has added a tALCX Staking pool to their website and that as liquidity starts flowing from tokemak and scales up can eventually replace pool twos, and now being a much more generalized fashion where the liquidity can move wherever it's needed across the ecosystem. That was very long winded. Let me know if I can go deeper on any of that. And for everyone on the call, tokens are pretty deep rabbit hole. So if I lose you on this call, check us out on media articles and it takes a little bit of time to get up to speed. But since you're all in the Olympus community, you clearly gigabrains because that's a deep rabbit hole as well.

[00:07:45.270] - Mr. E
Indeed. Yeah, it is pretty deep in general. When you were originally designing the protocol tokemak, did you have curveballs in mind or have you just been nimble to kind of market forces and seeing kind of the DeFi 2.0 landscape mixed with liquidity and then also stable coins?

[00:08:06.510] - Carson
Yeah. Very good question. So first and foremost, we were thinking in terms of much more protocol builders and so more often the governance tokens or project tokens, whatever you want to call them. That was really what we had in mind. So the kind of theme that we were seeing was like we were talking to all these different builders back when we were in the market making side of things, and we were seeing that the amount of mind share from really interesting creative builders in the space that was occupied by Liquidity was just like astounding like it was for some of these people, like 15% to 75% of their time was worried about liquidity isn't surprising because when in Web three, you've separated your users from your product by a token. So it only stands to reason that Liquidity sort of serves as bandwidth in the system, and they have to be able to buy and sell the token in order to interact with the actual product. Because of that, liquidity is very important. It's not just something that affects traders, it affects all users and all protocols that interact with a given token or protocol. So when we saw that we really built this saying, okay, there needs to be a much more democratized, unified liquidity layer that can unlock this liquidity bandwidth rather than have it just controlled by centralized market makers as an example.

[00:09:22.590] - Carson
And so that's really how Tokemak was formed. Now, that was the first users that we were thinking quickly as we were developing it, we realized that this was going to lead to what we're now calling like the TOKE Wars. But at the time, we were calling it sort of internally the liquidity arms race that would be coming. We were like, okay, well, clearly, the token projects are going to want it, but also the different Ducks are going to want it, because obviously, if you're like sushi swap, you'd want this and you'd want to use TOKE to do a straight ticket boat of all of the TV sort of in the other direction. Right. You'd want to direct that governance to sushi swap so that more liquidity gets more trading activity with better prices and therefore more fees generated. Those type of use cases were fairly obvious. It was later to your question. It was more in Q four of last year that we started really understanding. Okay. Here's what's happening with the curve wars and why and why. This is just as valuable, in fact, likely more valuable to stable coins than those other participants.

[00:10:18.660] - Carson
So everything I just described is totally true about Tokemak, and it will be helpful to all of those participants. But for stablecoins, it's sort of the next evolution of the governance that they're currently fighting over. And so I think Lobis is very bleeding edge in what you're currently bonding. So with FXS, TOKE and CRV, there's a very common theme within those in terms of this governance that controls emission and thereby controls liquidity just in sort of different arenas. As we started realizing sort of in Q four that stablecoins right now are worried about the peg. But next are going to be worried about utilization. That was when we realized, okay, cool. This really is the next stage of this. And we can also sort of use to the advantage of the Tokemak ecosystem. A lot of the mechanics that you have with FXS, CRV and Ve CRV in order to sort of maximize liquidity where the Tokemak community needs it. And the Tokemak community can, of course, be anyone who has TOKE and is voting. There's no such thing as sort of whales dominating a vote. Everything is prorated within our ecosystem.

[00:11:27.150] - Mr. E
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. We do have a question if Topga is a unified liquidity layer brain is a unified credit layer membrane is Toka's OTC version. But what does it have to do with credit? And how does this affect Logan and other partnerships?

[00:11:46.850] - Carson
Yeah. So this came out earlier today on another community call where I mentioned that the brain. There's this connection to credit. I'll keep it relatively brief because we haven't done the deep unveil yet of brain, but effectively membrane. For those that don't know, this is a protocol that hasn't launched yet that's going to be focused on OTC trading and bespoke lending. So basically any types of loans or block trades that you want to push through and the native token there is brain. Now the brain token effectively is going to give credit to individuals on the system, and then that credit is going to spill over to others. So the short answer. And again, this could occupy the whole call. If we were ready to unveil everything. Is that the brain token? You'll be able to now build things where everything is functioning on pre funded spot effectively throughout DeFi. Right now, I should say most things, this will be something where you can now tap into this brain network, basically to see what the credit worthy or the perceived creditworthiness is of underlying individuals while it's deaths, et cetera, and then actually weight different protocols around that.

[00:13:04.440] - Carson
So you can start building around this concept of credit. Now, the first protocol that will use that will be membrane. We have ways going forward that we're going to use that within the Tokamec ecosystem as well. But ultimately, this is a totally sort of agnostic tool. Much like TOKE is generalized liquidity. This will be sort of generalized credit that can be used across the ecosystem a lot more to come on that. So if I lost anyone on that, don't worry too much. That still hasn't been released yet.

[00:13:33.010] - Mr. E
I was going to say we could just keep abstracting away the complexity of all these systems with new tokens and the rest. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So like in general, so tokemak democratizing liquidity permissionless reactors on its way.

[00:13:53.030] - Carson

[00:13:53.430] - Plutus
Go ahead.

[00:13:54.180] - Mr. E
No, I was just going to say it really plugs into kind of how Lobis could enter the fold and using all of its TOKE. I know in general, the famous quote that I always grab on to you is Olympus is a black hole value tokemak black hole liquidity. And how Lopez can kind of plug into using some of that liquidity to fund either incubator program with specific programs either through Olympus or Token. That kind of graduates to jumping ahead of the VC curve. How could you leverage our community and really go forward and democratize that access?

[00:14:35.690] - Carson
Yeah, absolutely. So I think you're off to a great head start. If I was going to build a protocol dedicated to sort of the strategy of hoarding governance tokens, I think I would have started exactly with the ones that you've built at Lobis. So I think you're off to a great start. I think the FX S CRV voting weights and then TOKE all of these things are going to be extremely strategic, not only for maybe the slightly more short sighted but important feature of earning and compounding yields that come off of these systems. So you can imagine with TOKE you'll earn more TOKE by being a liquidity director as your treasury expands and you have other assets, you can deploy that as a liquidity provider to earn more TOKE and flow that back in as liquidity director there. So you get really interesting compounding. Plus, if you control the FX S and the CRV, there's an optimization game you can start playing then in terms of incentivizing pools where you could basically triple dip so you could direct TOKE liquidity from the Tokemak protocol to a curved pool that also happens to have fraction that is currently earning FX emissions and CRV emissions.

[00:15:45.800] - Carson
And then, of course, by directing your earning TOKE emissions. So pretty crazy. Those types of things almost make me wish. Not totally because I love building this stuff, but it almost makes me wish that I could have a full time job or fork my brain so that I could just do that optimization strategy with a project. But of course, with tokemak, there's way too much stuff tokemak and then membrane. There's too much stuff going on, so don't have time to do that. But that's a really interesting and very robust optimization game to be played. So that's sort of the short term game you already hit on the longer term that all these things are incredibly strategic, as you would partner with projects that are getting off the ground right. There's going to be this balancing act. And I I think really like the way you're doing it where you're sort of passing this governance through to the token holders. I think it's going to serve you very well in terms of utilizing your protocol to help partner with early stage projects and do all kinds of interesting things where they need liquidity first and foremost TOKE eventually all of these things either starts getting expensive or the voting rights associated therein starts getting expensive.

[00:16:50.640] - Carson
So having this governance down like you have, and I think the innovative things that you're planning to do, at least by my understanding with the voting, I think we'll set you up to do very interesting things down the road with these new products, which all need these raw resources. And there'll be sort of this battle that we want to make sure that we don't lock out small projects that are just getting off the ground, because really, that was the vision that's at least half the vision of why this is so helpful for projects as new ones really will need it.

[00:17:18.530] - Mr. E
I agree. Yeah. Totally. Let's see anyone in the audience. Everyone's a little quiet today receiving all the Alpha from liquidity. Was it.

[00:17:31.350] - Carson
The ramblings of a madman?

[00:17:34.230] - Mr. E
Yeah. Apparently you're trying to fork your own brain, so I think we got to slow you down a little bit.

[00:17:40.140] - Carson

[00:17:43.990] - Mr. E
In general, I can always continue to go. Being deep in both communities is a plus because you can always fill in dead space with being cleaned in my own mind.

[00:17:59.570] - Carson
Any direction.

[00:18:00.910] - Mr. E
Yeah. I mean, ultimately tokemak, as a doubt, mentioning the get book in some early days, in the discord that there was the potentiality of growing into a full fledged independent Dow. What's that structure look like? And where do you kind of see the end state of Tokemak going in regards to that? My analogy is like, right now you're kind of the Maker Foundation, and you kind of hold the reins to the Kingdom, and they eventually pass it off to, like, core divisions. How do you foresee you guys transitioning to a full fledged out, if that's in the plan?

[00:18:39.690] - Carson
Yeah. It's definitely in the plan. So I think this is one of those protocols where there's so many moving pieces early on that we sort of had to place certain pieces fairly close. This is mostly in terms of architecture decisions and what to build next decisions to the core team. But we quickly, actually, and probably over the next quarter, are going to start transitioning that much. Moreover, we want the end state of this to be fully fledged out. It's a little bit unique, right? Because in one sense, on an operational level, the TOKE is already very we're already using sort of governance on steroids to determine where the rewards go as liquidity starts flowing, where that goes. So operationally, it's operating very dull. But at the governance level, we are going to be spinning up very quickly. Forums, snapshot, all of kind of the standard trappings and start. What we'll probably do is at first quite a sort of outline a few things in our roadmap where we know, like, okay, these things and we'll probably still put that to a boat. But we'll say these are the things that we all consider to be the highest priority items that we need to be able to execute on and then anything Additionally will be improvement proposals, et cetera.

[00:19:46.760] - Carson
So we will quickly be getting to that. And we sort of know that that was the move fast phase early on, and we want to get that turned over to the community ASAP. So that should be coming over the next three months for sure.

[00:19:59.210] - Mr. E
Great. Yeah. I mean, you guys aren't releasing enough in two, one, 2022. So now start up the governance role. I guess it's a good transition into what all is launching in Q one and kind of where do you think we stand by Q two.

[00:20:17.750] - Carson
So exchange voting will be coming very soon, hopefully within the next week or maybe even late this week. I have to get back to the team here and confirm that. Don't hold me to the date for this week, but very soon the exchange voting is going to come. What that will mean is any of you on the call that are used to going to tokemak XYZ, you're going to have a whole additional layer of voting or governance available on the platform. So now, instead of just relocating your TOKE votes across the different reactors are essentially two different tokens. You'll be able to double click down below, say the Alcx reactor as an example, and you'll be able to start allocating votes to where you'd like to see that liquidity deployed. When that's first turned on, we're going to have the community and us getting used to that, make sure everything looks correctly. And then we're going to start deploying liquidity. So liquidity deployment from Tokemak is also planned over the next two to three weeks. So we've got some really big stuff coming here shortly, and that's really what it is doing, sort of when it starts doing the final thing that it's been intended to do.

[00:21:20.500] - Carson
So that's going to be extremely exciting. That's going to start scaling up as well as go to more and more venues. So we'll have a curve sushi swap unit swap balancer zero will take a little bit longer because you actually need external pricers for that. So that's a little bit more nuanced, but we'll be expanding to all those. We have an L2 integration that our first L2 integration will be coming over the next call it three ish weeks, something like that. Three to four weeks, and that's going to be a huge expansion, especially in late Q one time frame going to all of the relevant L1 S and L2 S. And at first those things will likely sort of exist in vacuum from the main one. And then there'll be a big Bridging exercise to connect all those things. So that will be coming shortly. I'm probably forgetting multiple things I'll say closer to today, which will get probably the Olympus community excited. We're planning to add G Om as Uno variant, most likely G Om as a pair reactor soon. So within the protocol we have this concept of token reactors and pair reactors.

[00:22:29.770] - Carson
Token reactors are just what you'd normally call governance tokens or project tokens. And then pair reactors hold the stable coins or et cetera, that you would pair with those to deploy at an exchange menu. So that will be pretty interesting. It should mean that for the Olympus community, any holders of Om that are getting the rebates. Since we've used the G version, you'd be able to get your Rebates plus earn TOKE so that should be quite exciting. And we have one or two other reactors that will be turning on likely as well over the next week. Let's see. I'm sure I'm forgetting many things. As you can tell, there's a pretty crammed pipeline we have of releases that are coming.

[00:23:08.810] - Mr. E
Yeah, it's stacked. I mean, you're destroying the tokemak discord with announcements and releases every day. So we're very excited to see. I mean, I guess the final expression won't really. It's a continuous basis as deep. I kind of is, but got to be excited the main utilities is starting. We're definitely pumped about that.

[00:23:30.270] - Carson
Yes, that's right. So it's exciting too, because it's still sort of I know early is used too often, probably in the space. But as I know your protocols early, this one still is actually quite early because we've done a lot of really cool things so far, and there's very innovative stuff going on already with the balance, the reactor game, and how the equations work, but we're just getting warmed up for what this thing is actually going to do.

[00:23:54.470] - Mr. E
Yeah, no, I agree. I guess you mentioned Olympus DeFi 2.0 in general, the moniker when you originally develop in tokemak were you hoping that these kind of digitally native solutions would grow or I guess the defile landscape has just changed so aggressively. Was there hope or was there certainty that some of the gaps would develop?

[00:24:23.750] - Carson
Yeah, it's really interesting. I'll say I didn't have the Crystal ball and exactly what types of things, and I still don't. But I can tell you that I've never been more like with 100% certainty that I've been convinced that a space is doing and will do exactly what we needed to do. There's never been a moment in time where if you have ideas plus, you know, a solidity tab, you can build whatever you want. So like, the ideation to creation phase is just crazy, and that's only going to accelerate now. Interesting thing I think that we're seeing happen within DPI, and I'll see if I can find the link. A news article or news outlet had asked me for my predictions on 2022, and I'll try to drop those in. But one of my interesting things that I think will be interesting is that I think this year will be a big year of sort of decoupling. I won't go into that too much. But meaning there's a lot of paperweight tokens sitting around versus all of us on this call. We know there's tokens and Dows that are doing crazy innovative things and actually have business models and have revenue and have promised to do absolutely absurd stuff.

[00:25:31.370] - Carson
So I think there'll be a decoupling there. I think what's interesting is that DeFi versus gaming DeFi is turning into a protocol to protocol game. And I think that's part of the reason I don't know if any people on this call that have been deep degens for a while have felt their brain slowly getting shot over time. I think all of us are holding we essentially been playing a B to B game, but as end retail consumers, and now I'm talking more from myself playing my retail account as opposed to a builder of tokenic. All of this sort of overload of how all these things connect and how these mappings work is not really meant for human brains. It's more meant for all these different protocols to interact. So I think DeFi is turning into really a base layer much like, all the different layers of the Internet that most people, unless you were an engineer computer scientist back in the 80s and 90s, most of us just sort of like, have a vague understanding, even a lot of the developers, and they don't really think through lower levels in the stack. I think what you'll have with Gamefive Web three, the probably horrible term metabolismo, but all of the stuff that's much more consumer facing, it's going to be a lot easier to sort of contextualize for humans.

[00:26:41.570] - Carson
And so I think DeFi continues to get a whole lot weirder, but a whole lot more usable. And I think all of us were just really early on, and we were basically playing the roles of protocols interacting before. You sort of had this expansion into like, what Olympus and Tokemak were some of the forerunners for here, which was protocols interacting with protocols. And yes, they're still humans and users interacting with them. But ultimately, all this stuff is going to be running under the hood for a new decentralized economy that's almost impossible to imagine right now. And it's going to be as absurd as sitting in, like, 1995 and imagining streaming Netflix to your phone. That's all coming. Actually, I just wrote a Bankless article too, that should drop today or this week at the latest next week. That's kind of on that topic.

[00:27:29.670] - Mr. E
Yeah, that's incredible. It's a good segue into Dow, To, Dow and collecting the hive mind and getting people as many people involved as possible contributions across the board, whether it's engineering, to, marketing and all driving towards some pretty lofty goals but equal access, decentralization everything that Lobis is trying to push in a broad sense. Let's see. We got e five math Lord, can we quickly touch on this image for those who do not entirely understand the semantics of it? And the image is of the eating Kirby that was launched by Archer in his recent Kingmaker article. It's curve being eaten by convex being eaten by, Tokemak, which is then involving Olympus Redactive Lobis Alchemy, and then FRAX. Can you give a little context to what that image means?

[00:28:33.330] - Carson
Yeah. So this is an interesting one. So I'll try to keep it at the Meme level, even though it's a good I think maybe left of the Bell curve synopsis of the right of the Bell Curve article that Archer wrote, which is a great article, and if possible, you should try to work your way through it. It's heavy stuff, but it's very powerful, and I think you'll still get good takeaways from that. Even if you're a resident lefty, and we love the leftist and the rightest as much in D Pi, the Meme is basically saying I think the first two sort of stand for I won't go into too much detail. But the convex eating curve part I won't spoil out on that. But that was basically read up on the if that part is unfamiliar read up on the curve boards. Fascinating stuff there where basically Convex found this model to separate revenues from governance power of the underlying CRV or Boat escrow ve CRV. And again, this gets to all of these different stable coins are battling it out because they need the peg, so they need the CRV in order to direct where the emissions go and therefore their liquidity and be able to hold their peg TOKE the reason why we put in that image that it's TOKE or it's a TOKE curvy eating that TOKE does a different purpose, right?

[00:29:51.800] - Carson
It's for utilization or liquidity as opposed to peg stability, but it's sort of a superset in that you can control the emissions to anything. So on curve, you're controlling it just within curve here, you can control it anywhere. And in addition, any of the CRV, this is a little bit of Alpha as we start earning CRV and CVX. The intent is to not hoard that necessarily at our Dow's discretion, but a little bit. And I think this is a little bit of a parallel playbook, probably to what you're doing. So this is interesting for you. As you are earning TOKE, there's going to be underlying CRV or CVX voting power that we plan to pass through to the TOKE holders. So that means that you can start, like, as low as you're earning TOKE. Over time, you'll start to realize and as we show sort of the contents of our treasury as they expand, you'll be able to say, cool as we get TOKE. We're not only getting tokenized liquidity, but we're also getting that CRV stability because they own X amount, and they're passing that through so that the TOKE holders can also exercise that.

[00:30:52.940] - Carson
So now you're kind of overloading TOKE with governance or liquidity, and it's not that we're trying to go sort of that's not our angle, right. Like where you guys will want to have lots of different governance. And I think you have a really interesting bent. This is a very specific one where naturally in our operations will be acquiring those and it's helpful. And then we want to make sure that that's helpful to TOKE holders. So we'll be kind of flowing that up so that's the process of like, okay, Convex was eating curve tokemak will be eating a lot of that and then passing governance rights up and then the little protocols over on the side. The sizing on the thing I don't think is reflective. That's not meant to mean that these things are small compared to token Mac. It was more how do you show multiple things trying to eat the TOKE. So like, if you could, a lot of those things should be probably as big as tokemak trying to eat the TOKE, but that's just showing that there'll be strong demand then for this generalized liquidity from a number of different protocols.

[00:31:48.010] - Carson
And we were just kind of putting some of the usual suspects that are, I think, on the bleeding edge of understanding how all of this stuff works and starting to realize that they need TOKE I agree, get everyone thinking. Yeah.

[00:32:01.270] - Mr. E
And I believe IceCube has a question. Hey, guys.

[00:32:09.530] - Plutus
Thanks a lot. I'm trying to pick up the remains of my brain, which is a bit wrecked right now. So it's interesting. Quick question. Initially, when I saw token math, I was thinking this is going to be a great tool to help new protocols bootstrap the liquidity. And it's been the case, like, for example, API, which was quite new, already had a reactor. Right. But also there are some big ones, like Omphus already had, like, 500 million dollar liquidity and still got a reactor.


[00:32:57.400] - Plutus
So my first question is a goal to help young protocols in their bootstrapping liquidity process. And maybe like, second part of the question is even big protocols always face a trouble. And I think we are going to go through this question pretty soon of when you get some liquidity on Ethereum, how do you manage to bootstrap liquidity on other chains? So are you guys planning to help in a way, like strapping liquidity cross chain both great questions.

[00:33:43.140] - Carson
So the first one on sort of size of projects, how to make sure smaller projects are receiving liquidity. I'll take it two different directions, sort of on two parallel paths that will help this. So one is that thus far for any of you on the call that have been following tokemak you might have heard of or participated in the core events. So core it was just an acronym for collateralization of reactor events. It was basically the events where the Tokyo community voted to say, what are the next reactors that get turned on? And those with the most votes after a period of time were the ones that got turned on. What we're going to evolve that to next is with permissionless reactors and permissionless reactors spin up will mean that you can drop a token hash in and then so long as enough TOKE gets staked to it and enough of the underlying asset, the ABC asset goes to it. The reactor is ignited and turned on that will really help for smaller products, because we want to have those be very manageable sort of thresholds. And again, that I think, is with a model like what Lobis has.

[00:34:48.200] - Carson
That's an interesting way where those that have this TOKE governance power can help ensure that protocols get their liquidity bootstrapped fairly quickly. Another sort of Avenue because we're sort of playing through the playbook. Right. And looking with how all this is going to work in terms of TOKE likely getting expensive and importantly, maybe more importantly, the vote power of tokemak getting expensive similar to like in the convex community. You have voting here. There's voting act. So we want to make sure we don't price out those individuals. So I think what you guys meaning new projects from coming on. So I think what's happening at Lobis, where you'll have governance power, there's really interesting ways that you can play that to help projects. We also within Tokemak. We're soon going to be releasing sort of a more structured plan, so the community knows how this will all work. But Tokemak has started a TOKE buyback program where weekly it's buying back a certain amount of TOKE, and the plan is to basically have that sideline, so that will be able to help smaller projects as well. Since we know that this asset likely will at some point the very success of it can lead to.

[00:35:57.620] - Carson
Okay. How do you make sure then that the smaller ones still can get off the ground and be benefited by? So I think that's something that both Token and Lobis can help going forward. Make sure that we're not pricing out smaller players as they go and start their tokenization journey, I guess. And I think I don't remember if I answered both questions. Did I only answer one of your questions?

[00:36:22.350] - Plutus
Yes, sir. Thanks a lot for this first answer.

[00:36:26.190] - Carson
It's great.

[00:36:27.990] - Plutus
I think it's totally where we can. We want to be also an incubator long project and offer them access to the full range of synergies that they could unlock through the metal governance that offers. Right. So yeah, I think it would be great. Yeah.

[00:37:01.390] - Carson
I'll be shorter on this one, but that's a huge part of where we'll be going. So within the next three or four weeks, we'll be having our first L2 integration, and then we'll be expanding to basically, and we'll lean on our community to sort of direct us where to go on the future ones after that. But our plan is to be sort of like turn into an any to any protocol. So provide liquidity, provide the assets on any supported chain, and then allow the liquidity directors to boat the liquidity to wherever it's needed on any chain. And we sort of set up things for those that know how tokemak works. We set up things based on cycles to sort of optimize for that because you obviously don't want to be bridging back and forth all the time every time the state of your balance sheet or your liquidity inventory changes. So you do things in sort of discrete cycles to sort of rebalance across all those. So that's going to be very important. And so you can imagine, in addition to tokens and stable coins and exchanges, caring about this liquidity and trying to direct it.

[00:38:05.150] - Carson
That's also going to be the case for L twos, as well as base layers where they're trying to direct liquidity to the venues that are native to them, because the demand for liquidity is going to play out across all those things as well.

[00:38:24.290] - Mr. E

[00:38:24.790] - Plutus
Nice. Thank you.

[00:38:28.710] - Carson
Absolutely. Good questions.

[00:38:32.070] - Mr. E
Adding to that, is there any concern about Bridging? I know you mentioned cycles that's part of the solution. But like Bridging liquidity cross chain and the Bridging mechanism being an attack vector and some of the strength of Ethereum and the underlying security versus having a native solution on, say, an L2, are you guys planning to have a native solution on L2, or is that just going to add to fragmentation? And I guess what are your thoughts on the Bridging aspects?

[00:39:04.610] - Plutus

[00:39:04.940] - Carson
So we're deep looking across. A few people on the team are sort of deep on looking at the different Bridging, not only for the tokens, but also on the actual governance or control aspect of how you can have votes on one chain reflect things elsewhere. So this will effectively within this because we're deploying sort of from different pools of LP capital to the underlying venues. This will mean that we have to have contracts deployed on those underlying venues, so likely the way this works and the way we're sort of architecting things will be that it won't just be a bridge going directly to ABC venue on chain B. It will instead be that it flows things over to basically the Tokemak manager there and then that deploys. So it'll be sort of an instance of tokemak on or at least some of the contracts on each of the venues or each of the new chains as we had support.

[00:39:59.850] - Plutus
Very cool.

[00:40:01.590] - Mr. E
We have a question from Plutus. What's the rough timeline for permissionless reactors?

[00:40:08.010] - Carson
That's a great question. So I am currently we were planning probably to do it sort of this month, but we wanted to make sure that we got a bunch of the other stuff that I was talking about, like the Liquidity deployments exchange voting life. So we push it a little bit further back into the timeline, but call it within the next two to three months, something somewhere in that time frame. We want to get that sort of out the door as soon as possible. But first we want to kind of complete the utility, actually, or at least the starting utility of this where liquidity is being deployed successfully. So that's why we made the choice to push back a little bit. Yeah. It also likely means that we'll do one more core. There probably will be one more core event before we go to permissionless reactors. We want to be able to not be delayed getting more reactors on until that's ready. So we'll probably do a core three and then probably evolve over permissionless and we're getting brought.

[00:41:07.920] - Mr. E
I think everyone yes. And then I know GH0ST08 is writing another piece for tokebase.org, maybe. So he's wondering, any speculation on the influx of capital from membrane through tokemak and what that might bring and then the Lobis rolling reaction and you answered it a little bit before. And if you want to add any more, go for it. If you want to say pass, we do have this recorded.

[00:41:37.170] - Carson
Yeah. Mostly probably what I said earlier, but I do think it will be interesting once both membrane is live, and then once we figure out how to membrane is a bit of a nuance because it does something kind of brand new for OTC and for lending. It's not as straightforward as just flowing liquidity directly into unit swap or sushi swap, for example. So both once that's out. Plus, once we figure out the right way to integrate flows from tokemak into that, I think that can be very interesting and probably lead to a significant reduction even for users that are running things on L1. You could now do trades that will use up much less gas trades and loans that will use up much less gas than if you're interacting directly with how most protocols work right now out in DeFi, that probably just introduced way more speculation and questions than it helped, but later on that will all make sense.

[00:42:46.630] - Mr. E
All right. Anyone else in the audience through the chat, I think we're digging pretty deep here.

[00:42:59.750] - Carson
I'm happy to come back for any of you that haven't done the deep dive on tokenic. Happy to come back as the obviously I know that you're already able to Mint using TOKE through Lobis, which is awesome, but happy to come back later too, at some point when there's community questions.

[00:43:15.130] - Mr. E
Yeah, of course. And just for your own education, just the Lobis ambassador. Just my role is to continue to educate both communities on. I guess the opportunities at hand. And as you mentioned, tokemak is a really deep dive. So I think I got my work cut off for the logo side and on the tokemak side. Just kind of get the wouldbe creators of builders excited about the critical mass of Toko that we have. Let's see, we got can you elaborate on the role stable items and our assets?

[00:43:49.430] - Carson
Yes. So I'll give the fairly quick overview of this. So this is one of our pools that we're going to be launching fairly soon. These effectively are the higher risk, higher return pools. So LPs within Tokemak are protected, and this is very important for composability into everything you want effectively as much usable liquidity or liquidity bandwidth out in the system. So you need to protect one for one liquidity providers. And so T assets are always redeemable one for one. We're going to have this other pool called the reserve, as opposed to a token reactor or pair reactor where you can still put the underlying in exchange for an our asset. So if you put in ABC, you get back our ABC. This is all going to balance in real time, similar to what we have right now with balance the reactor, you now have a third piece where it's liquidity providers, liquidity directors and reserve. These are generally for more sophisticated participants, and we anticipate that the Dows are going to very heavily use this, but anyone can use it you'll earn a higher emission of TOKE versus being a liquidity provider. But the surplus and deficit and quantity of that asset as the markets move around and as Tokemak buys and sells, essentially, that risk is borne over by that group.

[00:45:03.020] - Carson
So you might get more of your asset back and you might get less of your asset back. You can kind of think of it as like the Slush fund or something for Tokemak, where that complexity is handed over there. And in exchange for that risk, you get a higher return.

[00:45:19.010] - Mr. E
Cool. We got CEO Burt, welcome, sir. What drivers of TVL growth might be the most influential beyond the incremental onboarding of new reactors to reach singularity.

[00:45:36.810] - Carson
So it's interesting. So as you go to multi chain, I'll say first off, the utilization of curve pools, which I don't think I covered much on this, but the Tea assets are going to be paired with assets, and there'll be pools within curve pools. So there's going to be very interesting revenue growth in the form of Curve and CRV and CVX, like I was mentioning before, we're going to be power users of Curve essentially. So that's going to be very interesting in the short term in the longer term. What's really interesting is looking across and we have to figure out the right way to put this to community on, sort of where we continue to expand in terms of protocol deployment. But all of these different liquidity layers, I anticipate that the space gets a whole lot more confusing over the next year. And what I mean by that is we're already planning in this L2 world, but things are sort of, in my opinion, just getting heated up there. And so the need for liquidity is going to probably lead to very large incentives on all these different venues. And so those that can build there quickly which Tokemak will be in deploying liquidity.

[00:46:41.360] - Carson
I think you'll get outsized returns there versus sort of the usual suspects that are deployed on L1. Now we obviously will want whatever the holders of the TOKE want is what will happen. So in other words, it might be that more just directing to sushi swap out one, because that's where the builders deem the most demand from protocols and users to buy and sell their tokens. But of course, we'll be showing basically be showing and probably reflecting in a small way our incentive, our emission program. So that okay. Hey, if over on this L2, it's generating significant additional revenue for Tokemak. We want to make sure that that's taken into account or at least shown in our data to holders of TOKE that are directing liquidity. So I guess the short answer would be in the short term, curve is going to be a huge source of revenue for us, the curve ecosystem. And then in the sort of midterm as we go to all of these different L2s we expect that outsized revenue will come from a lot of those makes sense.

[00:47:45.150] - Mr. E
Makes sense. And since we have a lot of gigabrains, we are digging deep. Someone reminded that we may have not mentioned what the singularity is. So a little context, that would be great.


[00:47:58.460] - Carson
So the singularity the initial way we define the singularity. And I think it's still relevant. But I'll also show you a different vision for the singularity that I recently had. The singularity is effectively the moment when you no longer need third party liquidity providers, because Tokenc itself has enough liquidity to basically be the liquidity bandwidth of DeFi. So this is similar. I think it was on this call where and if it wasn't, it was something I was chatting in the last day. Was that sort of this analogy of like if Olympus is a black hole of value, then Tokemak is a black hole of liquidity. So it's this kind of concept of like source and river or whatever. This is a conduit to flow acid. So in the early days and this was actually in the early days when we were architecting this and Tokemak wasn't out in the wild. Olympus wasn't out in the wild. And so I was playing with sort of DeFi 1.0 primitives in my head, as opposed to where everything went. I was thinking like, okay, cool. So it'll eventually just have to be that Tokemak has enough of these assets, then you don't actually have to admit to third party liquidity providers.

[00:49:05.850] - Carson
This is just a liquidity utility that exists to provide liquidity bandwidth. My thinking has now sort of evolved to the level that you can hit singularity, not necessarily just by internalizing assets within Tokemak, but rather by internalizing assets in sort of a consortium of protocols that hold enough assets and are string together where there is enough demand for liquidity or enough appetite for liquidity that you don't need to continue to incentivize it. So you sort of get into this interesting state of where does tokemak end and where does Olympus or other protocols begin? It starts getting much more of a Gray area as these things are connected together. And again, I think this is why DeFi gets a whole lot weirder to outsiders and a whole lot more opaque to look in at all. These things are just base layers to provide the economy that's going to be built on top. So that's sort of the short way to define it is the moment that you don't need third party LPs. But I think now, instead of defining third party as external to Tokemak, you define third party as external to some interconnected protocols, which would likely include Tokemak, Olympus and some others that hold enough liquidity and all have a vested interest in making sure that liquidity is flowing.

[00:50:18.890] - Carson
Additionally, there's a sort of a further definition of the singularity that I've been toying around with, which is looking at the ratio or looking at how much assets are sitting in venues as liquidity, which means basically that their tokemak or others are routing them through them versus how many are sitting out just idle in either Staking contracts or in wallets, because in a future world, this is why we built the T assets like we did. Everyone should want to hold the T asset, which means the base asset is being used as useful liquidity under the hood. Plus, you're earning emissions on top of that asset. And so over time, you effectively want to get to where every single user, every wallet, every protocol, every staking contract is built around key assets instead of base assets to make sure that the maximum amount of liquidity is being provided out to the ecosystem.

[00:51:09.110] - Mr. E
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. It goes back to that Dow to Dao protocol to protocol defy Legos and where we can go and then also bridging back to traffic. It's definitely exciting to be involved in the Olympus Tecoma University.

[00:51:26.990] - Carson
Yeah, absolutely. Super excited about, like, both of these things sort of came out of the woodwork at similar timings. Olympus was a few months before us, but the first time I talked to Zeus and Co, I was like, okay, this is awesome. One of the first protocols I talked to where I was like, this is a shared vision of the future and how things will work, and we were just coming after different pieces of it, and they'll co exist in some really interesting ways and reinforce each other.


[00:51:51.830] - Mr. E
Happy that Ethos is there and strong, I think unless anyone has anything else in the audience, I think we're going to call it a little bit early. We've been nudging Liquidity Wizard. He has been busy today, so I'm sure he needs a glass of water and the guy stopped talking to it.

[00:52:09.950] - Carson
I appreciate it. Great community that you built here, and I know you guys are early right now, but happy to come back anytime. And for any of you that have not played around with tokemak it's at tokemak XYZ if you want to play around with it. And there's a lot of good media articles you can read up on to understand how this craziness works.

[00:52:26.690] - Mr. E
All right. Yes. I appreciate it. Everyone here also will put in the discord link to Tokemak. Jump over there. They have a great community. Ask them questions we are bonding TOKE. We will continue to bond TOKE. I am the lowest ambassador to Tokemak and definitely will continue to bridge the communities, both from core team down to community on both sides. So really happy to be involved over there and over here and get excited for the future. Folks, 2022 is going to be a big year.

[00:53:01.370] - Carson
Awesome. Appreciate the invite. Thanks you everyone.

[00:53:03.920] - Plutus

[00:53:04.480] - Mr. E
Thank you.

[00:53:06.290] - Plutus
Thank you very much. Bye.

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