After Redacted Cartel acquired Votemak, Carson stepped into to become an advisor to Redacted. Based on the comments from this AMA, this appears to be a strategic move to keep close tabs on the incentives that are flowing into Tokemak's reactors.
They go on to chat about the Curve model, and how Tokemak's design aims to be as gas efficient as possible to side-step the debilitating Ethereum gas fees.
Carson also let slip some interesting bits of alpha:
- LD Voting (to exchanges) should go live this week. Liquidity won't flow until later this month, but the UI for picking a destination venue will be deployed.
- First L2 integration in the next month.
- If TOKE is a unified liquidity layer, BRANE is a unified credit layer.
- gOHM pair reactor coming soon!
[00:00:00.910] - Sami
Okay. Cool. So yeah, we won't hold you too long. We'll just get started. Like, maybe if you want to, like, introduce yourself, and if you wanted to introduce yourself and maybe give the community run down of what you do with Tokemak.
[00:00:14.970] - Carson
Okay. Sounds great. So quick introduction. I'm Liquidity Wizard, also known as Carson I'm pseudonymous. So you'll see me as both out in the community, founder of Tokemak for those that don't know. And I'm sure there's probably a mix of people on this chat that have no idea what Tokemak does, and then some that are probably deep on it. It's a pretty deep rabbit hole, so don't feel like discouraged or anything if you are half lost on this call, happy to come back. And there's quite a few good medium articles that can kind of get you acclimated to how all this works. So in a nutshell, Tokemak is a decentralized liquidity provider or decentralized market maker. It essentially is building a unified liquidity layer that sits above exchanges. So we're not an exchange. We never trade through Tokemak, but rather it basically crowd sources, tokens or capital from liquidity providers. We then have participants called liquidity directors that hold our native token called TOKE, and some people pronounce it Tok or Toky. They direct the liquidity around to wherever it's needed across DeFi. So, for example, they could say, hey, we want to see more butterfly liquidity on Sushi swap as an example.
[00:01:28.550] - Sami
And effectively, the pro rata split of where all those votes go controls where all of the liquidity is routed. Plus, there's an impact on the actual emissions of TOKE. So you're sort of playing this game for those of you that are familiar with how the Convex and Curve ecosystem, it's actually in a lot of ways, even more dynamic than that where you're controlling not only the sourcing of capital via directing emissions, but then the holders of the TOKE are also routing liquidity wherever it's needed across the ecosystem.
[00:02:00.170] - Carson
Yeah, you brought it up with Convex and Curve. Obviously, when this project first started, there was a big focus on Curve and Convex, but obviously it makes sense for us to diversify, which is why we made this move to Votemak. And I guess I think one of the questions that was popping up with the acquisition and stuff is sort of like, how does the TokeWars compared to something like the Curve boards and not really from a monetary standpoint, but more like, what are people really thriving with?
[00:02:32.010] - Carson
Yeah, it's a great question. So I think when we built Tokemak, we were thinking mostly in terms of, like, governance and project tokens. I'm starting this sort of what we're now calling TokeWars, but this sort of liquidity arms race where there's strong demand for TOKE and for the governance power, really liquidity directing power that it has. Also there's a huge demand for it from the exchange side, so you can imagine the venues want to direct more liquidity to themselves. So sushi swap or units want more liquidity, which means a tighter spread or better pricing, which means more trading volume, which means more fees they're generating. So you already have these sort of many different groups across the ecosystem that need TOKE and I think talking to any DAO, they would tell you one of the biggest things that are on most of the founders mind is how to secure liquidity for their tokens. What wasn't apparent from the very beginning, but which sort of became much more apparent to me in November December time frame was how powerful this is for stable coins or what we call pair assets. So for those of you familiar with the Curve wars and were redacted was very much out on the forefront of this being like, hey, let's go and acquire CVX CRV type voting power, that's going to be at a premium.
[00:03:38.950] - Carson
You can use the bribes. It's sort of a natural evolution from the Convex Curve utility, which is really stabilization of stable coins. So if you look and you see why the Curve wars are happening in the first place, it's largely driven from stablecoin projects. That first and foremost need to hold a peg, so they incentivize the emissions into these underlying pools on Curve. Excuse me, so that they're able to hold the peg with respect to the other stables. That sort of table stakes are phase one, that stablecoins need phase two. Is it's not good enough just to have something that holds its peg? You then also need adoption of it or really utility across DeFi. And that's where Tokemak comes in. So the evolution from Curve wars into the TokeWars are really as stable coins. It's much broader than stable coins, because as I mentioned before, exchanges and governance tokens also need TOKE they also need liquidity or utility. But the stable coins are going to naturally evolve from the Curve wars into TokeWars, and the Curve wars will persist. So Redacted is in a unique position here, I think, where you're acquired MAK and TOKE, which will serve you well to go after both of these things, because again, all stable coins will need both stability, which they get from the Curve wars and utility in the form of liquidity or sort of utilization across DeFi, which they'll get from the TokeWars from TOKE.
[00:05:03.530] - Sami
Yeah, for sure. And with Tokemak right. You have sort of like these core events that are going on right now, but eventually there's going to be permission list reactors. Right. So what kind of changes as this transition to being fully launched and launching permissionless reactors sort of holding store for how people are driving, I guess, like TOKE holders, yes.
[00:05:30.230] - Carson
So it'll be very interesting to watch sort of as Votemak evolves with the new functionalities that will be added to Tokemak. So initially, as Sammy said, we had these events called core, and if some of you haven't seen those or participating in them, they were effectively the events that determine which tokens got the next reactors or effectively the next liquidity from Tokemak. And of course, the rewards they're in where their project token holders could stake and earn more tokens. So right now there's I think nine reactors live on the site, plus on the token reactor side, and like seven or eight pair reactors that are stablecoins largely and eat going forward. As Sammy said, we're going to move to permissionless reactors. So instead of us picking like a group of 40 or 50 projects like we did, which is admittedly arbitrary. Right in the past events, we now will just have the ability where anyone could drop a token hash in and sort of put it as a candidate up for ignition or for turning that reactor on in that world TOKE essentially governance power is still going to be required to initialize that reactor. And so I anticipate that the demand for TOKE and therefore the functionality that can be implemented in the Bribing mechanics that can be built in at Votemak to get even more interesting as we go to permissionless reactors.
[00:06:54.680] - Carson
Now, it goes from something that's sort of event driven and that's determined frankly, by when the core team decides to run the next core event to something that's much more community driven, real time and where you can generate incentives or bribes on top of the TOKE governance power. Additionally, I know we're throwing a lot at you. One other really interesting thing that actually is for the ongoing reactors that are on is they're always playing this sort of game of stabilization. So this is much more like the Curve gauge weight votes where right now Votium is being used for bribes or incentives that are built on top of the Curve Convex ecosystem within this space. Photomat could be used basically to add additional incentives where projects could bribe for boats to direct more TOKE governance to a given token, which would therefore attract more TV and thereby enable Tokemak to deploy more of that token liquidity across device. So I think that Votemak power is going to only increase and there'll be a lot more interesting. Like it was already very interesting with the core boats and had great utilization. And I think it's only just beginning on sort of how that will be able to work and how that can.
[00:08:16.970] - Sami
Yes, for sure. So I think just to clarify for everyone, it was really like an interesting opportunity for us to explore, right. Because what happens is originally you could look at Votemak as something that's very similar to Votium the sense that whenever there's an event, people delegate their tokens to us and then we find the highest return something like that. Right. But what happens with the evolution of Tokemak and it's sort of moving to these permissionless reactors is it can actually become somewhat of like this passive income machine where there's constantly going to need projects are constantly going to need to basically put up bribes and put up rewards so that they can point the liquidity towards their token. Right. And as the amount of reactors grow, it only becomes more favorable for us. Right. Obviously. One thing that was important in the Tweet was that we're not really allowed to do anything malicious with this and extract as much value out of Tokemak as possible from this. One of the things we did was bring on was as sort of like an advisor to how this is going to go down, and he's going to help sort of oversee the operations to make sure it's in line with everything that is going on with Tokemak.
[00:09:35.990] - Sami
Maybe you want to talk about some of the things that you can see is like concerns. And why do you think it's important to help advise on how we run voting?
[00:09:47.880] - Carson
Yeah. Absolutely. And Sami, as I said before, I really appreciate the offer to have me be plugged into this as an adviser, help with oversight and excited to be plugged in with the redacted community. Broadly and as well as Votemak. So as you were saying, I think that it's a perfect analogy, really. And it really is almost perfect that voting app is to token act as voting is to the Curve and Convex ecosystem. And for any of you that you'd that are deep on the Curve Wars, every project that has a stake in the Curve Wars is basically using Votium. So that kind of shows the potential here for what's going to happen with Votemak. And I think as Sammy was saying, the important thing is we'll be working together to make sure that not only this is good for Votemak, but also Tokemak and the way that will sort of work is we want to make sure that we sort of encompass it's important with how the balancing equations work within Tokemak that we sort of know the all in incentives for an individual reactor. So this is one of those really interesting cases in the space where with financial logos where it's like, have Votemak come along and built this and then I think falling into the hands of Redacted. Here where I think we'll be able to build some really interesting features on top.
[00:11:05.420] - Carson
We probably would have at some point in the future built something like this where different projects could come and deposit additional of their own tokens. Or really any tokens in it's always better if you can partner on stuff versus build it yourself. So I'm Super happy that this exists out there. Now what it means for us is that we need to basically complete the feedback loop where users of Votemak are going to be looking at Tokemak to see sort of the state of things and then put incentives or bribes accordingly at the Votemak level. We need to then sort of fold those into our equations so that they sort of reflect that in real time. So it would then say, okay, cool. There's this much TOKE emissions or TOKE rewards down on the base Tokemak level. Plus, we have 100 ABC tokens that are bribed to this reactor up on the Votemak level. And the reason that's important is that we'll just make sure that the system is operating at peak efficiency because it's properly then reflecting that in sort of the all in APR of the individuals and that'll keep everything kind of tightly coupled between Tokemak and Votemak.
[00:12:04.040] - Carson
So it's going to be very interesting. And I think that's again, another good reason we're being tightly joined at the hip with the redacted community and being able to make sure that we understand kind of the inputs and outputs, just like Votemak has to understand the inputs outputs of Tokemak. We have to understand that for Votemak to make sure we can reflect that in our system and make sure it operates at peak efficiency, which will be good for all holders Tokemak as well as Votemak and Redacted.
[00:12:31.910] - Sami
Yeah, for sure. Maybe it would be good to talk a bit about what's next in store for open back in general. So obviously the plan right now is the direct liquidity between Uniswap and Sushi swap. But what else are you guys looking at in terms of maybe other chains or other taxes?
[00:12:50.570] - Carson
Yeah, absolutely. So I think exchange voting is going live later this week, which will be a super exciting, major milestone for us. It's a little bit of elf in here. I don't think we've announced that really broadly. That's going to be the first time that users are able to see the next level of essentially TOKE governance. This will be very interesting to you, Sammy, I think, and to Votemak, because this will show not only can you move your tokens, basically, both them in real time around to the different reactors, you can also then within a given reactor say that you want to see ABC Token on Uniswap, for example. So people are going to start getting familiar with that mechanic. Then liquidity deployment will actually start happening over the next couple of weeks. As you said, we'll have sushi swap unit swap balancer zero X, although zero X will take a little bit longer because you actually have to have a network of prices for that, since it doesn't just price on a name, it's a little more complicated. And then we're also going to be bringing in Curve. So this gets a little bit meta.
[00:13:47.120] - Carson
And for any of you on the call that aren't deep on Tokemak, I'll keep this brief. Don't worry. If I lose you here, there's going to be Curve support not only for the pair reactors, where you have stables, where you'd naturally think about parking nose and Curve, but also the way Tokemak works is liquidity providers get back a t version of the asset. So if any of you are familiar with AAVE and you get back aAssets, it's a little bit like that. Put in butterfly or I'm sure down the road we'll have a butterfly reactor. You get back tButterfly. And so what's going to happen is we're going to be establishing liquidity also in the Curve for the tAsset versus the standard asset, which gives holders the ability to sort of get in and out in real time in a real market from the token tAssets back to the base liquidity assets. So that's coming shortly. And then we're going to be quickly expanding into other layers as well. So I think hopefully late this month, but for sure, within the next three to four weeks we're going to have our first L2 integration, and we'll be going pretty much to all of the different L2s as well as relevant base layers quite quickly as well.
[00:14:52.600] - Carson
So Q1 is going to be a pretty crazy continuous expansion, and we'll be just connecting into more chains. And of course, all the relevant DEXes within any given layer as we connect into them.
[00:15:11.070] - Sami
Yeah. Curve integration is definitely very interesting for us. Right. Because one path that we're looking at now is sort of like how we can leverage other tokens, like LP assets. Right. And what might be a really interesting path forward for us is sort of looking at if protocols drive us in their T tokens right in their tAssets, how we can leverage those to sort of like even further bolster the Tokemak community. Right. And what will happen in the near future as we sort of build out the integration as we keep on building out, like our protocol or stake and Convex and Curve is eventually TOKE bonds will be live. Right. Obviously subject to a governance folk, but I think everyone's on page with bringing on TOKE bonds. Obviously, we know the value in bringing on TOKE bonds from a buyer perspective. It would work similar to how it works with, like, Convex and stuff like that. But I guess it would be cool to hear, like, your sort of thought on why it might be beneficial to bond token on top of integrating something like Votemak.
[00:16:20.650] - Carson
Yes. Absolutely. The compounding effects here are going to be pretty insane. So I'll give you a couple examples. And actually, before I even say that, I'll say something interesting about that's, probably a way people haven't really thought about the Curve Convex ecosystem or for any of you. If you're familiar with the Fract ecosystem and how they use the Vote Escrow system with FXS, you can kind of think of because we don't normally use the boat lock. We might be using that down in the future, but we did basically a brand new design, but there's a lot of mapping sort of to that system, even though we sort of built in parallel and weren't sort of copying that same ecosystem. But you can kind of think of Curve as a system. The entire sort of Curve gauge system is a system set up to control where liquidity goes by controlling emissions, but it's always locked to the confines or locked to the jail of the Curve platform. The Curve exchange. Meanwhile, for those of you familiar with FRAX, if you've gone down that rabbit hole, very analogous system, very cool stuff that they're doing. But now it's restricted to pools that have Frax in them.
[00:17:21.830] - Carson
So that's sort of locked to a different jail that's locked into sort of the restriction of you can direct emissions and therefore direct liquidity to any pools that have fracts in it. Both very cool ideas, and both, I think, will be very hard and will be very powerful Tokemak if you think about how TOKE works. That's where you can control liquidity by controlling emissions to any pool anywhere. So it's really generalized liquidity. It's not restricted to a single asset. It's not restricted to a single venue. So if you think about the compounding effects, especially then for a protocol like Redacted, where you are stockpiling Curve, Convex power and stockpiling TOKE power. You can use both of those to sort of accomplish sort of optimization in terms of the yields or the flows that are going back to the protocol. Now, coming back to sort of this concept of if you use bonds for the tAssets, or if you use your own treasury sort of as liquidity provider all of these things, at least in the early innings we're incentivizing with TOKE. We want to continue to decentralize token, so get TOKE into more hands.
[00:18:25.270] - Carson
And of course, we want to build up TVL and we want to build up liquidity. So that means that if you provide assets as a liquidity provider, you'll be stockpiling more TOKE you can then fold that over in as a liquidity director, so you can be getting sort of the raw yields. Plus, you could have people bribing on top. So you're earning both additional TOKE plus whatever additional bribes. Meanwhile, since you have the Votemak system, you'll be able to sort of control that ecosystem as well as sort of how the economics flow. There so really interesting ways that all of these things sort of compound and LP side and TOKE side both will get more TOKE which you can then flow back into TOKE plus bribes. It gets pretty powerful.
[00:19:09.730] - Sami
Yeah, definitely. And you touched on it briefly there. Right. So right now there's no vote lock token. Right. And the way it sort of works is pretty unique in the sense that it's actually like gas less governance. Right. Maybe you can explain a bit like how that all works and how you guys are sort of looking at governance as a whole.
[00:19:31.750] - Carson
Yeah. Absolutely. So when we were architecting Tokemak we sort of think of we kind of jokingly internally, call this all governance on steroids, but I think it's somewhat true. So we sort of looked at different things that were out there at the time that we were building it. It was the moment that gas was going insane on EthereumL1, and we said, okay, first and foremost, if we have a protocol that routes liquidity from users and protocols hands as they deposit tokens all the way through, like our system of manager contracts down to the end venues, unit swap, sushi swap Curve. We can't have the user paying gas for all of that. So I've seen plenty of really innovative, really cool protocols where a user has to pay $400 to $2,000 of gas. And I've gladly paid that bill for research purposes. But I have realized that's broken. And obviously there's plenty of things off of Ethereum one that should hopefully improve this. But that was very top of mind when we built this. So what we said was let's make sure that when users deposit deposit as an LP or stake TOKE that they're always just sort of interacting with the base, like the surface layer contract.
[00:20:38.740] - Carson
So it's as cheap, even though, albeit being on L1, it's as cheap as possible. Then if they've staked TOKE let's make them effectively movement of TOKE, which is really their governance boats using the TOKE let's make that be as cheap as possible so that they can effectively just sign with their wallet in order to sort of move their token governance around in real time based on the APRs that are moving around on the dashboard in real time. Same thing is going to happen with the exchange. You're basically getting two layers of governance once you've staked your token and all those are just signatures and you can change as many of those parameters as you want, then just do one signature and effectively we are storing that then initially up on Matic, so we're storing it up on their Tokemak handles the gas. That, of course, is cheap, but it effectively is being routed through an API there, so it's still everyone can make sure that everything was properly accounted for and it is committed to the chain. But that was sort of the way that we minimize gas and made sure the experience wasn't broken for shrimps, even though it's on L1.
[00:21:40.560] - Carson
And of course, if we expand the L2 s, that will get even better where it's even cheaper, because I know to smallholders even a light gas transaction on Ethereum L1 can still be pretty painful.
[00:21:54.710] - Sami
Yeah, definitely. I know you have to bounce soon, so I won't keep you too long. Maybe last one or two questions. Unless anyone in the community has anything to ask, I guess. Yeah. You bring up L2 with governance like you're expanding to L2 and stuff like that. Obviously one thing our community wants us to become less attached to maintenance. Right? Sort of like expanding out. And I guess one of the things we've been looking at in our first L2 expansion is something like dopex, right where we're not even really looking at that liquidity anymore. But we're looking at the value of potential derivatives platforms and stuff that operate on something like derivatives platforms haven't really succeeded until now, because obviously there's a scalable solutions out now that are functioning. Are you guys ever thinking about expanding beyond DEXes? Like, how would reactors work for things where they're not really providing liquidity to a deck and maybe to a derivatives platform or lending platform? Yeah.
[00:22:56.160] - Carson
It's a great question. So the interesting thing is, I think we kind of did the hard thing first, so we're definitely thinking about how this could be used beyond just what we call like generalized trading liquidity where right now we're always depositing into venues where you can trade from token A into token B. Right. We're first trying to stand up that liquidity. We want to basically tighten down the spreads and make it much better for trading, which in here is not just doesn't just matter for traders. It matters for all users and protocols that are coming in and out of these tokens for whatever reason. So that's sort of phase one. But as you were saying, we'll just use lending protocols as an example. Right. A lot of our logic we can actually bypass, if you are, for example, depositing into fuse pools or into Abe or something like that, because those are taken to the sort of single sided deposits in most cases. Right. A lot easier to go into don't have to do sort of a coordination between two different pools and deploying and then deal with all of the quantity movements and impermanent loss.
[00:23:50.410] - Carson
So in general, quite a bit simpler. We'll definitely be going to that we'll probably be putting that to governance to determine sort of when to expand into it because it's sort of this other dimension to the platform, and we want to do it when the community thinks is right to go to that. Derivatives are definitely something we've been thinking about and for us similarly, it works pretty well in how we've architected this, because now instead of just moving the underlying like you would and basically prefunded spot where you have to put both in, you're putting whatever effectively margin tokens in which might be heat. There might be a stable coin or whatever, and then you plug in what we call pricers on our platform, and this is getting down the rabbit hole. But that's a whole other participant that will be adding this year, which is for any of those protocols where you do need a third party pricer to plug in. So long winded way of saying we definitely do want to go to derivatives, sort of after we've entrenched ourselves within the spot market as well as lending protocols. And really, any spot that tokens could be utilized, I think, is where we go eventually we'll just lean on our community to sort of tell us when to open up the floodgate to that the next sort of tranche of venues that we could direct liquidity to perfect.
[00:24:58.280] - Sami
So one community question from Jason, before you have to go, where do you imagine Membrane fit with the long term plans within the long term plans? And how can the partnership with Olympus and Redacted fit within that or with other plans? Ultimately, how can they create a mutually beneficial relationship with Tokemak to help build with each other?
[00:25:20.990] - Carson
Yeah. Great question. So I'll quickly hit on Membrane and then I'll hit on Olympus and Redacted. So Membrane is interesting for some of you on the calls, this board probably means nothing. And for other of you, you're probably speculating wildly on when there's going to be the token and all this. This is basically a sister project to Tokemak that is solely focused on OTC trading and lending. It's going to be super interesting and enable users to basically interact with OTC markets and bespoke lending with the same ease that they do to most sort of standard DeFi protocols so that's going to be coming very soon. We're going to have a lot of announcements on that pretty soon. But I'll just give you sort of since we're talking on the Tokemak side where the linkages sort of fit in. So eventually, even though it's a very different flavor venue than any of the things that are out there right now in DeFi, that can be added as a recipient liquidity venue from Tokemak. So eventually, membrane can be a spot where liquidity from Tokemak can also be directed. So that's one way that sort of Tokemak can feed into membrane in reverse.
[00:26:23.900] - Carson
Membrane is an interesting conduit that will likely get a lot of additional capital into the DeFi ecosystem. And so we also anticipate that there will probably be ways that we can flow capital sort of from the conduit that is membrane into Tokemak in the first place. And there's one other really crazy use case of the actual brain token. Now we're really giving out Alpha here the brain token. If TOKE is basically a liquidity layer or is enabling a unified liquidity layer, then brain is going to enable a unified credit layer. So the brain token is actually going to stand as the ability for a desk, an individual whomever to represent, that they are creditworthy within the blockchain. And that will enable many things both within the membrane ecosystem as well as we know sort of how to plug that in on the Tokemak ecosystem of prices or and many other things across TV. So that was further down the rabbit hole. I meant to go there, but there's very interesting things coming with membrane that will help support all of this. A lot more on that soon. On the Redacted and Olympus side, I think some really interesting things will be coming.
[00:27:33.440] - Carson
So one obviously, I think the initialization of the Votemak acquisition is great. I think that's going to sort of join us at the hips in a lot of ways. We're already very good friends with the Olympus community. I talked with Zeus and Jawz and Co quite frequently, usually every week or two. And we've got some really interesting things we're looking at in terms of where we could direct liquidity there. We're also planning additional Alpha here. We're planning to elevate Ohm, likely in the form of G Om to a pair reactor probably very soon. So keep an eye out for that. And so really, I think the way that token that can be most helpful to the redacted in the Olympus community is just helping to entrench liquidity for Om and for friendly projects sort of across the ecosystem and make sure that users are as frictionless as possible for users to get in and out of Om and really increase the liquidity bandwidth for Olympus related projects across DeFi. Yeah.
[00:28:38.830] - Sami
Perfect answer. So I know you have to go. So I'll let you head out if you want to say anything plug, token, Mac or whatever you want to do for you to dip.
[00:28:47.790] - Carson
Sounds great. Yeah. Sorry that I have to jump. Happy to come back anytime. If the community is very confused about any pieces tokens a deep rabbit hole. I think all of you are probably gigabytes, because if you're in redacted, it means you'll understand the broad Olympus ecosystem, which is an equally deep rabbit hole. But, yeah, head over to Document XYZ sometime. If you want to see the available yields out there, the easiest way to sort of get started is just look us up on medium to read some info there. There's some good long form threads out there, especially by Sterling Archer. If you want to just read a Twitter thread instead of a medium post, check out Sterling Archer. He's got some good long form ones that sort of explain how everything works. And, yeah, happy to come back anytime. Love the redacted community and excited that you've acquired Votemak. I think there'll be a lot of things we'll be able to do together.
[00:29:35.250] - Sami
Let's do it. I'll let you head out. I'll just wrap up here.
[00:29:38.180] - Carson
Awesome. Thanks, Sammy. I appreciate it, everyone. Thank you later.
[00:29:42.930] - Sami
Yeah, guys. So that was it. It was just a quick 30 minutes call. It was recorded. If you jumped in later or something like that, hopefully, it gave you guys a bit more insight as to why we think it's like a strategic decision to acquire Voda Mac, and I think it puts us in a really good place beyond. Obviously, like the TOKE bonds will launch eventually. But I think being on something like voting, which is sort of like this layer on top of Tokemak, we can plug into all the different things that Carson was talking about and sort of let us be at the forefront of how liquidity is moving across DeFi, which is really the end goal. Right? I'll wrap up here. Really. Just a short call. We'll post the recording right after this. And, yeah, everyone. Thanks for joining.